[Lutecium-group] la question de ἐκτὸς ἄτας
Bonjour, Est ce-qu'il y a de quelqu'un qui conna?t bien le grec pourrait m'aider d'expliquer la question de deux ????? ???? propos?e par Lacan dans le S?minaire VII, les pages 305, 314, 322, 323 ? Ces deux ????? ???? provient du texte Antigone de Sophocle, les vers 611-614, 620-625, dont des traductions que je peux trouver actuellement ne me semblent pas tr?s claires. Je vous remercie en avance. Bien cordialement, Eric HUANG
Je dirais que c?est une pr?position suivie du g?nitif de at?. ? hors (ektos) de l?at?", c?est-?-dire du fl?au, du fatum, du destin funeste que les deux envoient comme punition. Je ne sais pas si cela vous aide, mais j?ai envie de continuer ma recherche, lorsque je serai en pr?sence de mes livres? V
Le 9 mai 2019 ? 08:46, zuo huang <hz_eric at hotmail.com> a ?crit :
????? ????
Bonjour MMe Violaine Cl?ment, M. Guy de Villers Grand-Champs et M. Loic Toubel Merci de vos r?ponses et explications. Il s?agit de deux paragraphes de vers dans l?Antigone: vers 605-614 ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tea%2Fn&la=greek&can=tea%2Fn0&prior=*xoro/s>, ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*zeu%3D&la=greek&can=*zeu%3D0&prior=tea/n>, ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=du%2Fnasin&la=greek&can=du%2Fnasin0&prior=*zeu=> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ti%2Fs&la=greek&can=ti%2Fs0&prior=du/nasin> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29ndrw%3Dn&la=greek&can=a%29ndrw%3Dn0&prior=ti/s> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28perbasi%2Fa&la=greek&can=u%28perbasi%2Fa0&prior=a)ndrw=n> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kata%2Fsxoi&la=greek&can=kata%2Fsxoi0&prior=u(perbasi/a>; 605 ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ta%5Cn&la=greek&can=ta%5Cn0&prior=kata/sxoi> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%2Fq%27&la=greek&can=ou%29%2Fq%270&prior=ta\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28%2Fpnos&la=greek&can=u%28%2Fpnos0&prior=ou)/q%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ai%28rei%3D&la=greek&can=ai%28rei%3D0&prior=u(/pnos> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=poq%27&la=greek&can=poq%270&prior=ai(rei=> ?<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28&la=greek&can=o%280&prior=poq%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fnt%27&la=greek&can=pa%2Fnt%270&prior=o(> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29greu%2Fwn&la=greek&can=a%29greu%2Fwn0&prior=pa/nt%27>, ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%2Fte&la=greek&can=ou%29%2Fte0&prior=a)greu/wn> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qew%3Dn&la=greek&can=qew%3Dn0&prior=ou)/te> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fkmatoi&la=greek&can=a%29%2Fkmatoi0&prior=qew=n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=mh%3Dnes&la=greek&can=mh%3Dnes0&prior=a)/kmatoi>, ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29gh%2Frw%7C&la=greek&can=a%29gh%2Frw%7C0&prior=mh=nes> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=de%5C&la=greek&can=de%5C0&prior=a)gh/rw|> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xro%2Fnw%7C&la=greek&can=xro%2Fnw%7C0&prior=de\> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=duna%2Fstas&la=greek&can=duna%2Fstas0&prior=xro/nw|> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kate%2Fxeis&la=greek&can=kate%2Fxeis0&prior=duna/stas> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*%29olu%2Fmpou&la=greek&can=*%29olu%2Fmpou0&prior=kate/xeis> ????????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=marmaro%2Fessan&la=greek&can=marmaro%2Fessan0&prior=*)olu/mpou> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ai%29%2Fglan&la=greek&can=ai%29%2Fglan0&prior=marmaro/essan>. 610 ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%2F&la=greek&can=to%2F0&prior=ai)/glan> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=t%27&la=greek&can=t%270&prior=to/> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpeita&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fpeita0&prior=t%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C0&prior=e)/peita> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=kai\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=me%2Fllon&la=greek&can=me%2Fllon0&prior=to\> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C1&prior=me/llon> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C1&prior=kai\> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pri%5Cn&la=greek&can=pri%5Cn0&prior=to\> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29parke%2Fsei&la=greek&can=e%29parke%2Fsei0&prior=pri\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fmos&la=greek&can=no%2Fmos0&prior=e)parke/sei> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Fd%27&la=greek&can=o%28%2Fd%270&prior=no/mos>, ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=o(/d%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%28%2Frpei&la=greek&can=e%28%2Frpei0&prior=ou)de\n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qnatw%3Dn&la=greek&can=qnatw%3Dn0&prior=e(/rpei> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=bio%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=bio%2Ftw%7C0&prior=qnatw=n> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fmpolu%2F&la=greek&can=pa%2Fmpolu%2F0&prior=bio/tw|> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=g%27&la=greek&can=g%270&prior=pa/mpolu/> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=g%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>. 614 vers 615-625 ?<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%28&la=greek&can=a%280&prior=*xoro/s> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ga%5Cr&la=greek&can=ga%5Cr0&prior=a(> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dh%5C&la=greek&can=dh%5C0&prior=ga\r> ????????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polu%2Fplagktos&la=greek&can=polu%2Fplagktos0&prior=dh\> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lpi%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29lpi%5Cs0&prior=polu/plagktos> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polloi%3Ds&la=greek&can=polloi%3Ds0&prior=e)lpi\s> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=me%5Cn&la=greek&can=me%5Cn0&prior=polloi=s> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%29%2Fnasis&la=greek&can=o%29%2Fnasis0&prior=me\n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29ndrw%3Dn&la=greek&can=a%29ndrw%3Dn0&prior=o)/nasis>, 215 ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polloi%3Ds&la=greek&can=polloi%3Ds1&prior=a)ndrw=n> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%270&prior=polloi=s> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29pa%2Fta&la=greek&can=a%29pa%2Fta0&prior=d%27> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=koufono%2Fwn&la=greek&can=koufono%2Fwn0&prior=a)pa/ta> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29rw%2Ftwn&la=greek&can=e%29rw%2Ftwn0&prior=koufono/wn>: ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ei%29do%2Fti&la=greek&can=ei%29do%2Fti0&prior=e)rw/twn> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%271&prior=ei)do/ti> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=d%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%28%2Frpei&la=greek&can=e%28%2Frpei0&prior=ou)de\n>, ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pri%5Cn&la=greek&can=pri%5Cn0&prior=e(/rpei> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=puri%5C&la=greek&can=puri%5C0&prior=pri\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qermw%3D%7C&la=greek&can=qermw%3D%7C0&prior=puri\> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fda&la=greek&can=po%2Fda0&prior=qermw=|> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tis&la=greek&can=tis0&prior=po/da> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=prosau%2Fsh%7C&la=greek&can=prosau%2Fsh%7C0&prior=tis>. ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sofi%2Fa%7C&la=greek&can=sofi%2Fa%7C0&prior=prosau/sh|> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ga%5Cr&la=greek&can=ga%5Cr1&prior=sofi/a|> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fk&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fk0&prior=ga\r> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tou&la=greek&can=tou0&prior=e)/k> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kleino%5Cn&la=greek&can=kleino%5Cn0&prior=tou> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpos&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fpos0&prior=kleino\n> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pe%2Ffantai&la=greek&can=pe%2Ffantai0&prior=e)/pos>. 620 ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=pe/fantai> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kako%5Cn&la=greek&can=kako%5Cn0&prior=to\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dokei%3Dn&la=greek&can=dokei%3Dn0&prior=kako\n> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pot%27&la=greek&can=pot%270&prior=dokei=n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29sqlo%5Cn&la=greek&can=e%29sqlo%5Cn0&prior=pot%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tw%3D%7Cd%27&la=greek&can=tw%3D%7Cd%270&prior=e)sqlo\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmmen&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fmmen0&prior=tw=|d%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=o%28%2Ftw%7C0&prior=e)/mmen> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fre%2Fnas&la=greek&can=fre%2Fnas0&prior=o(/tw|> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qeo%5Cs&la=greek&can=qeo%5Cs0&prior=fre/nas> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fgei&la=greek&can=a%29%2Fgei0&prior=qeo\s> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pro%5Cs&la=greek&can=pro%5Cs0&prior=a)/gei> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftan&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftan0&prior=pro\s>: ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pra%2Fssei&la=greek&can=pra%2Fssei0&prior=*xoro/s> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%272&prior=pra/ssei> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%29li%2Fgiston&la=greek&can=o%29li%2Fgiston0&prior=d%27> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xro%2Fnon&la=greek&can=xro%2Fnon0&prior=o)li/giston> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>. 625 La difficult? consiste en chaque de deux derni?res phrases: les traductions fran?aise et anglaise ? Une loi, en effet, pr?vaudra toujours, comme elle a toujours pr?valu parmi les hommes ? et ? And through the future, both near and distant, as through the past, shall this law prevail: nothing that is vast comes to the life of mortals without ruin? de ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%2F&la=greek&can=to%2F0&prior=ai)/glan> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=t%27&la=greek&can=t%270&prior=to/> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpeita&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fpeita0&prior=t%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C0&prior=e)/peita> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=kai\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=me%2Fllon&la=greek&can=me%2Fllon0&prior=to\> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C1&prior=me/llon> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C1&prior=kai\> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pri%5Cn&la=greek&can=pri%5Cn0&prior=to\> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29parke%2Fsei&la=greek&can=e%29parke%2Fsei0&prior=pri\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fmos&la=greek&can=no%2Fmos0&prior=e)parke/sei> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Fd%27&la=greek&can=o%28%2Fd%270&prior=no/mos>, ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=o(/d%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%28%2Frpei&la=greek&can=e%28%2Frpei0&prior=ou)de\n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qnatw%3Dn&la=greek&can=qnatw%3Dn0&prior=e(/rpei> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=bio%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=bio%2Ftw%7C0&prior=qnatw=n> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fmpolu%2F&la=greek&can=pa%2Fmpolu%2F0&prior=bio/tw|> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=g%27&la=greek&can=g%270&prior=pa/mpolu/> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=g%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? ne sont assez claires, surtout les mots ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=o(/d%27>? et ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fmpolu%2F&la=greek&can=pa%2Fmpolu%2F0&prior=bio/tw|>? et leur relation avec ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>?. De m?me, les traductions fran?aise et anglaise ? Celui qu'un Dieu pousse ? sa perte prend souvent le mal pour le bien, et il n'est garanti de la ruine que pour tr?s-peu de temps ? et ? that evil at one time or another seems good, to him whose mind a god leads to ruin. But for the briefest moment such a man fares free of destruction ? de ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=pe/fantai> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kako%5Cn&la=greek&can=kako%5Cn0&prior=to\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dokei%3Dn&la=greek&can=dokei%3Dn0&prior=kako\n> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pot%27&la=greek&can=pot%270&prior=dokei=n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29sqlo%5Cn&la=greek&can=e%29sqlo%5Cn0&prior=pot%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tw%3D%7Cd%27&la=greek&can=tw%3D%7Cd%270&prior=e)sqlo\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmmen&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fmmen0&prior=tw=|d%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=o%28%2Ftw%7C0&prior=e)/mmen> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fre%2Fnas&la=greek&can=fre%2Fnas0&prior=o(/tw|>????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qeo%5Cs&la=greek&can=qeo%5Cs0&prior=fre/nas> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fgei&la=greek&can=a%29%2Fgei0&prior=qeo\s> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pro%5Cs&la=greek&can=pro%5Cs0&prior=a)/gei> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftan&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftan0&prior=pro\s>: ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pra%2Fssei&la=greek&can=pra%2Fssei0&prior=*xoro/s> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%272&prior=pra/ssei> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%29li%2Fgiston&la=greek&can=o%29li%2Fgiston0&prior=d%27> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xro%2Fnon&la=greek&can=xro%2Fnon0&prior=o)li/giston> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? ne sont pas assez claires non plus, surtout le mots ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pra%2Fssei&la=greek&can=pra%2Fssei0&prior=*xoro/s>? et sa relation avec ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>?. Oui, Lacan a son int?r?t dans sa traduction ?au-del? de l???? ?--distincte de la traduction traditonnelle ?sans d?sastre/without ruin ?-- pour ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? dans l?Ethique. Il me semble que Lacan veuille proposer que Antigone n?est pas la repr?sentative de loi d?en haut contre le loi de la Cit? comme Hegel le dit, mais la repr?sentative de l?humain lui-m?me. Lacan utilise ces deux ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? pour attester que Antigone franchit la limite du fatum (???) et ? la fois la limite humaine par sa mort volontaire, m?me si cela dure un instant. La possibilit? de sortir les limites humaines et de se d?gager de la domination du fatum est en effet l?essence d??tre humain. C?est pr?cis?ment en ce sens que Antigone m?rite une grande heroine. L? id?e de Lacan est magnifique! Mais le probl?me est: les significations de ces deux ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? dans les vers ci-dessus pourraient supporter le point de vue de Lacan? PS, il y a quelqu?un qui a par hasard la traduction de Robert Pignarre que Lacan a une fois recommand?? Merci. ________________________________ From: Lutecium-group <lutecium-group-bounces at lutecium.org> on behalf of Violaine Cl?ment <violaine.clement at co-perolles.ch> Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 12:51 PM To: lutecium Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] la question de ????? ???? lutecium-group: Ceci est un document du Groupe de Travail Lutecium. Nous ne disposons financierement que de vos dons: http://donations.lutecium.org/wpmu/fr/products-page/ --- Je dirais que c?est une pr?position suivie du g?nitif de at?. ? hors (ektos) de l?at?", c?est-?-dire du fl?au, du fatum, du destin funeste que les deux envoient comme punition. Je ne sais pas si cela vous aide, mais j?ai envie de continuer ma recherche, lorsque je serai en pr?sence de mes livres? V
Le 9 mai 2019 ? 08:46, zuo huang <hz_eric at hotmail.com> a ?crit :
????? ????
_______________________________________________ A question? click mailto:Help-Me at lutecium.org Lutecium-group mailing list Lutecium-group at lutecium.org http://www.lutecium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lutecium-group
Oui c'est chez Garnier-Flammarion. Une enseignante en lettres classiques vient de me la transmettre : Ta toute-puissance, ? Zeus, comment l'orgueil des humains la tiendrait-il en ?chec? Ni le sommeil qui tout entra?ne vers sa fin, ni les mois, enfants des dieux, dans leur cours infatigable, n'ont de prise sur elle. ?ternellement jeune, ma?tre absolu, tu si?ges sur l'Olympe, dans une aveuglante clart?! Et demain comme hier et toujours, pr?vaudra cette loi: nul mortel n'atteint l'extr?me du bonheur qu'il ne touche ? sa perte. La mobile esp?rance console bien des hommes, mais de bien des hommes aussi abuse les d?sirs cr?dules: vers celui qui n'y prenait garde elle se glisse, il s'est br?l?! Son pied touchait le feu? Quelle sagesse ?clate en l'adage fameux: Un esprit ?gar? prend le mal pour le bien. Un moment suffit pour le perdre. Bien ? vous, Loic. (o? Lacan recommande-t-il R. Pignarre?) Le 10/05/2019 ? 19:04, zuo huang a ?crit?:
lutecium-group: Ceci est un document du Groupe de Travail Lutecium. Nous ne disposons financierement que de vos dons: http://donations.lutecium.org/wpmu/fr/products-page/ --- Bonjour MMe Violaine Cl?ment, M. Guy de Villers Grand-Champs et M. Loic Toubel
Merci de vos r?ponses et explications.
Il s?agit de deux paragraphes de vers dans l?Antigone:
vers 605-614
????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tea%2Fn&la=greek&can=tea%2Fn0&prior=*xoro/s>, ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*zeu%3D&la=greek&can=*zeu%3D0&prior=tea/n>, ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=du%2Fnasin&la=greek&can=du%2Fnasin0&prior=*zeu=> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ti%2Fs&la=greek&can=ti%2Fs0&prior=du/nasin> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29ndrw%3Dn&la=greek&can=a%29ndrw%3Dn0&prior=ti/s> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28perbasi%2Fa&la=greek&can=u%28perbasi%2Fa0&prior=a)ndrw=n> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kata%2Fsxoi&la=greek&can=kata%2Fsxoi0&prior=u(perbasi/a>; 605 ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ta%5Cn&la=greek&can=ta%5Cn0&prior=kata/sxoi> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%2Fq%27&la=greek&can=ou%29%2Fq%270&prior=ta\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28%2Fpnos&la=greek&can=u%28%2Fpnos0&prior=ou)/q%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ai%28rei%3D&la=greek&can=ai%28rei%3D0&prior=u(/pnos> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=poq%27&la=greek&can=poq%270&prior=ai(rei=> ?<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28&la=greek&can=o%280&prior=poq%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fnt%27&la=greek&can=pa%2Fnt%270&prior=o(> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29greu%2Fwn&la=greek&can=a%29greu%2Fwn0&prior=pa/nt%27>, ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%2Fte&la=greek&can=ou%29%2Fte0&prior=a)greu/wn> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qew%3Dn&la=greek&can=qew%3Dn0&prior=ou)/te> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fkmatoi&la=greek&can=a%29%2Fkmatoi0&prior=qew=n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=mh%3Dnes&la=greek&can=mh%3Dnes0&prior=a)/kmatoi>, ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29gh%2Frw%7C&la=greek&can=a%29gh%2Frw%7C0&prior=mh=nes> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=de%5C&la=greek&can=de%5C0&prior=a)gh/rw|> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xro%2Fnw%7C&la=greek&can=xro%2Fnw%7C0&prior=de\> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=duna%2Fstas&la=greek&can=duna%2Fstas0&prior=xro/nw|> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kate%2Fxeis&la=greek&can=kate%2Fxeis0&prior=duna/stas> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*%29olu%2Fmpou&la=greek&can=*%29olu%2Fmpou0&prior=kate/xeis> ????????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=marmaro%2Fessan&la=greek&can=marmaro%2Fessan0&prior=*)olu/mpou> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ai%29%2Fglan&la=greek&can=ai%29%2Fglan0&prior=marmaro/essan>. 610 ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%2F&la=greek&can=to%2F0&prior=ai)/glan> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=t%27&la=greek&can=t%270&prior=to/> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpeita&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fpeita0&prior=t%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C0&prior=e)/peita> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=kai\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=me%2Fllon&la=greek&can=me%2Fllon0&prior=to\> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C1&prior=me/llon> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C1&prior=kai\> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pri%5Cn&la=greek&can=pri%5Cn0&prior=to\> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29parke%2Fsei&la=greek&can=e%29parke%2Fsei0&prior=pri\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fmos&la=greek&can=no%2Fmos0&prior=e)parke/sei> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Fd%27&la=greek&can=o%28%2Fd%270&prior=no/mos>, ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=o(/d%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%28%2Frpei&la=greek&can=e%28%2Frpei0&prior=ou)de\n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qnatw%3Dn&la=greek&can=qnatw%3Dn0&prior=e(/rpei> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=bio%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=bio%2Ftw%7C0&prior=qnatw=n> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fmpolu%2F&la=greek&can=pa%2Fmpolu%2F0&prior=bio/tw|> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=g%27&la=greek&can=g%270&prior=pa/mpolu/> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=g%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>. 614
vers 615-625
?<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%28&la=greek&can=a%280&prior=*xoro/s> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ga%5Cr&la=greek&can=ga%5Cr0&prior=a(> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dh%5C&la=greek&can=dh%5C0&prior=ga\r> ????????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polu%2Fplagktos&la=greek&can=polu%2Fplagktos0&prior=dh\> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lpi%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29lpi%5Cs0&prior=polu/plagktos> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polloi%3Ds&la=greek&can=polloi%3Ds0&prior=e)lpi\s> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=me%5Cn&la=greek&can=me%5Cn0&prior=polloi=s> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%29%2Fnasis&la=greek&can=o%29%2Fnasis0&prior=me\n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29ndrw%3Dn&la=greek&can=a%29ndrw%3Dn0&prior=o)/nasis>, 215 ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polloi%3Ds&la=greek&can=polloi%3Ds1&prior=a)ndrw=n> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%270&prior=polloi=s> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29pa%2Fta&la=greek&can=a%29pa%2Fta0&prior=d%27> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=koufono%2Fwn&la=greek&can=koufono%2Fwn0&prior=a)pa/ta> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29rw%2Ftwn&la=greek&can=e%29rw%2Ftwn0&prior=koufono/wn>: ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ei%29do%2Fti&la=greek&can=ei%29do%2Fti0&prior=e)rw/twn> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%271&prior=ei)do/ti> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=d%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%28%2Frpei&la=greek&can=e%28%2Frpei0&prior=ou)de\n>, ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pri%5Cn&la=greek&can=pri%5Cn0&prior=e(/rpei> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=puri%5C&la=greek&can=puri%5C0&prior=pri\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qermw%3D%7C&la=greek&can=qermw%3D%7C0&prior=puri\> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fda&la=greek&can=po%2Fda0&prior=qermw=|> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tis&la=greek&can=tis0&prior=po/da> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=prosau%2Fsh%7C&la=greek&can=prosau%2Fsh%7C0&prior=tis>. ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sofi%2Fa%7C&la=greek&can=sofi%2Fa%7C0&prior=prosau/sh|> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ga%5Cr&la=greek&can=ga%5Cr1&prior=sofi/a|> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fk&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fk0&prior=ga\r> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tou&la=greek&can=tou0&prior=e)/k> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kleino%5Cn&la=greek&can=kleino%5Cn0&prior=tou> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpos&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fpos0&prior=kleino\n> ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pe%2Ffantai&la=greek&can=pe%2Ffantai0&prior=e)/pos>. 620 ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=pe/fantai> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kako%5Cn&la=greek&can=kako%5Cn0&prior=to\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dokei%3Dn&la=greek&can=dokei%3Dn0&prior=kako\n> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pot%27&la=greek&can=pot%270&prior=dokei=n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29sqlo%5Cn&la=greek&can=e%29sqlo%5Cn0&prior=pot%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tw%3D%7Cd%27&la=greek&can=tw%3D%7Cd%270&prior=e)sqlo\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmmen&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fmmen0&prior=tw=|d%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=o%28%2Ftw%7C0&prior=e)/mmen> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fre%2Fnas&la=greek&can=fre%2Fnas0&prior=o(/tw|> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qeo%5Cs&la=greek&can=qeo%5Cs0&prior=fre/nas> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fgei&la=greek&can=a%29%2Fgei0&prior=qeo\s> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pro%5Cs&la=greek&can=pro%5Cs0&prior=a)/gei> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftan&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftan0&prior=pro\s>:
???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pra%2Fssei&la=greek&can=pra%2Fssei0&prior=*xoro/s> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%272&prior=pra/ssei> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%29li%2Fgiston&la=greek&can=o%29li%2Fgiston0&prior=d%27> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xro%2Fnon&la=greek&can=xro%2Fnon0&prior=o)li/giston> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>. 625
La difficult? consiste en chaque de deux derni?res phrases:
les traductions fran?aise et anglaise ? Une loi, en effet, pr?vaudra toujours, comme elle a toujours pr?valu parmi les hommes ? et ? And through the future, both near and distant, as through the past, shall this law prevail: nothing that is vast comes to the life of mortals without ruin? de ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%2F&la=greek&can=to%2F0&prior=ai)/glan> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=t%27&la=greek&can=t%270&prior=to/> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpeita&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fpeita0&prior=t%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C0&prior=e)/peita> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=kai\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=me%2Fllon&la=greek&can=me%2Fllon0&prior=to\> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kai%5C&la=greek&can=kai%5C1&prior=me/llon> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C1&prior=kai\> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pri%5Cn&la=greek&can=pri%5Cn0&prior=to\> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29parke%2Fsei&la=greek&can=e%29parke%2Fsei0&prior=pri\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fmos&la=greek&can=no%2Fmos0&prior=e)parke/sei> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Fd%27&la=greek&can=o%28%2Fd%270&prior=no/mos>, ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=o(/d%27> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%28%2Frpei&la=greek&can=e%28%2Frpei0&prior=ou)de\n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qnatw%3Dn&la=greek&can=qnatw%3Dn0&prior=e(/rpei> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=bio%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=bio%2Ftw%7C0&prior=qnatw=n> ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fmpolu%2F&la=greek&can=pa%2Fmpolu%2F0&prior=bio/tw|> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=g%27&la=greek&can=g%270&prior=pa/mpolu/> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=g%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? ne sont assez claires, surtout les mots ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29de%5Cn&la=greek&can=ou%29de%5Cn0&prior=o(/d%27>? et ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pa%2Fmpolu%2F&la=greek&can=pa%2Fmpolu%2F0&prior=bio/tw|>? et leur relation avec ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>?.
De m?me, les traductions fran?aise et anglaise ? Celui qu'un Dieu pousse ? sa perte prend souvent le mal pour le bien, et il n'est garanti de la ruine que pour tr?s-peu de temps ? et ? that evil at one time or another seems good, to him whose mind a god leads to ruin. But for the briefest moment such a man fares free of destruction ? de ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=to%5C&la=greek&can=to%5C0&prior=pe/fantai> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kako%5Cn&la=greek&can=kako%5Cn0&prior=to\> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dokei%3Dn&la=greek&can=dokei%3Dn0&prior=kako\n> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pot%27&la=greek&can=pot%270&prior=dokei=n> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29sqlo%5Cn&la=greek&can=e%29sqlo%5Cn0&prior=pot%27> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=tw%3D%7Cd%27&la=greek&can=tw%3D%7Cd%270&prior=e)sqlo\n> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmmen&la=greek&can=e%29%2Fmmen0&prior=tw=|d%27> ???<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28%2Ftw%7C&la=greek&can=o%28%2Ftw%7C0&prior=e)/mmen> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fre%2Fnas&la=greek&can=fre%2Fnas0&prior=o(/tw|>????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qeo%5Cs&la=greek&can=qeo%5Cs0&prior=fre/nas> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fgei&la=greek&can=a%29%2Fgei0&prior=qeo\s> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pro%5Cs&la=greek&can=pro%5Cs0&prior=a)/gei> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftan&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftan0&prior=pro\s>: ???????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pra%2Fssei&la=greek&can=pra%2Fssei0&prior=*xoro/s> ??<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=d%27&la=greek&can=d%272&prior=pra/ssei> ?????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%29li%2Fgiston&la=greek&can=o%29li%2Fgiston0&prior=d%27> ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xro%2Fnon&la=greek&can=xro%2Fnon0&prior=o)li/giston> ?????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? ne sont pas assez claires non plus, surtout le mots ????????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pra%2Fssei&la=greek&can=pra%2Fssei0&prior=*xoro/s>? et sa relation avec ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>?.
Oui, Lacan a son int?r?t dans sa traduction ?au-del? de l???? ?--distincte de la traduction traditonnelle ?sans d?sastre/without ruin ?-- pour ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? dans l?Ethique. Il me semble que Lacan veuille proposer que Antigone n?est pas la repr?sentative de loi d?en haut contre le loi de la Cit? comme Hegel le dit, mais la repr?sentative de l?humain lui-m?me. Lacan utilise ces deux ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? pour attester que Antigone franchit la limite du fatum (???) et ? la fois la limite humaine par sa mort volontaire, m?me si cela dure un instant. La possibilit? de sortir les limites humaines et de se d?gager de la domination du fatum est en effet l?essence d??tre humain. C?est pr?cis?ment en ce sens que Antigone m?rite une grande heroine.
L? id?e de Lacan est magnifique! Mais le probl?me est: les significations de ces deux ??????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29kto%5Cs&la=greek&can=e%29kto%5Cs0&prior=xro/non> ????<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Ftas&la=greek&can=a%29%2Ftas0&prior=e)kto\s>? dans les vers ci-dessus pourraient supporter le point de vue de Lacan?
PS, il y a quelqu?un qui a par hasard la traduction de Robert Pignarre que Lacan a une fois recommand?? Merci.
________________________________ From: Lutecium-group <lutecium-group-bounces at lutecium.org> on behalf of Violaine Cl?ment <violaine.clement at co-perolles.ch> Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 12:51 PM To: lutecium Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] la question de ????? ????
lutecium-group: Ceci est un document du Groupe de Travail Lutecium. Nous ne disposons financierement que de vos dons: http://donations.lutecium.org/wpmu/fr/products-page/ --- Je dirais que c?est une pr?position suivie du g?nitif de at?.
? hors (ektos) de l?at?", c?est-?-dire du fl?au, du fatum, du destin funeste que les deux envoient comme punition.
Je ne sais pas si cela vous aide, mais j?ai envie de continuer ma recherche, lorsque je serai en pr?sence de mes livres?
V
Le 9 mai 2019 ? 08:46, zuo huang <hz_eric at hotmail.com> a ?crit :
????? ????
A question? click mailto:Help-Me at lutecium.org Lutecium-group mailing list Lutecium-group at lutecium.org http://www.lutecium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lutecium-group _______________________________________________ A question? click mailto:Help-Me at lutecium.org Lutecium-group mailing list Lutecium-group at lutecium.org http://www.lutecium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lutecium-group
participants (3)
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hz_eric＠hotmail.com -
toubel.loic＠gmail.com -
violaine.clement＠co-perolles.ch